Two Masters: Satan or God

SatanBlack-and-White Christianity adopts a simplistic, perverted view of human psychology: Good ideas come from God, bad ideas come from Satan. Of course ideas don’t come from us, but instead the two big puppet-masters (Satan & God) toy with humans.

“The Warrioress”, a commentor here occasionally, is a conservative Evangelical Christian who buys into this flavor of Angelology (a theological category containing angels, demons and Satan). In a recent comment she has said, ”

It’s all laid out for anyone with half of a brain. God or Satan. Make a choice. The plot is spelled out crystal clear in that bible for anyone to read. If you don’t want God, you get the other guy. (shrug). What’s not to understand?

And elsewhere she felt I displayed that I was a servant of Satan.  She felt I served Satan and said what he’d want me to say:

“Good grief, Sabio. Sounds exactly like something Satan would say.”

She then tries to justify herself saying,

I’m not trying to imply or even accuse that Sabio is Satan; obviously he isn’t. However, just as God uses people to further His own end, so does Satan to further his. It’s really pretty simple. If you’re not on God’s side, you’re on the other by default.

But nothing top’s the cake better then when she shows how she view non-Christians when see says:

I really don’t look down on you in the least; I don’t even know you. It’s kind of akin to when you’re watching a horror movie like “Friday the 13th Part Ten” and the stereotypical naive guy is listening to his Ipod while he jogs through the woods. He is about to bite the dust. He’s completely clueless and happy in his state of oblivion while Jason Voorhees is right on his back bumper, but does he realize it? No, not a chance, not until that machete blade is lodged where ever Jase sticks it next — then it’s too late. In this scenario, Satan is Jason, not God, just in case you were about to ask that next. lol.

JasonYep, you heard that right. The Christian Warrioress envisions non-Christians as hapless, clueless idiots about to be slaughtered. And she pities us — she doesn’t “look down on us”, she just pities us: I’ll be damned if I get the nuance difference? [pun intended]

This simplistic God-or-Satan-puppet-master mentality is not shared by all Christians by any means. I haven’t explored the various forms of Angelology out there, but gee, is it really worth investigating?

Question to readers: What are different views Christians have concerning Satan’s role in our mental states?


Filed under Philosophy & Religion

54 responses to “Two Masters: Satan or God

  1. She chooses to serve the one that lets the other run amok among us.. so her story goes. Seems to me, in her story, the honest one is Satan character.

    How does she know there is only one good and one bad character… there might be millions.

    People like that make my head hurt.

  2. Hey, nice graphic with the vertical text!

    I would have done it in red on black… but I’m practically a Satanist, whereas you definitely aren’t…

  3. flattered I’m starring in yet another one of your posts, dear Sabio. (chuckle) Congrats on actually being reasonable in sharing most of the story and not attempting to make it look like you wanted it to look like. I did say those things and I stand by them.

    I think the Jason example is an excellent way of explaining how we Christians feel about those who clearly do not grasp or see what’s playing out right before their very eyes; they are oblivious to it.

    It’s like when the camera shows Jason watching the poor soul, who cluelessly has no idea he’s being stalked and about to bite the dust. Well, I’m not talking about Satan/Jason doing violence to the prey, (we naive humans), I’m talking about Satan pulling the deluded into his web and wrapping them up nice and neat to have for himself later (in hell) when the story ends.

  4. Oh, one more thing…
    I don’t pity any of you. You’ve got that wrong, Sabio. I mean, I don’t deny that sometimes I do feel sorry and frustrated when I’ve gotten a headache trying to make those who don’t believe grasp what I’m sharing with them — but it’s not overall consistent pity that endures.

    More than anything else, I feel a feeling of urgency within me, and sometimes of hopelessness that I can’t convince you or the others who believe similarly, *especially* when I grow to love and care about those whom I’m getting to know and communicating with. I can become depressed over it. I’ve been very hurt in the past by atheists who really didn’t understand how much I cared about them, and how I could be concerned about their future, whatever that’s going to end up being, because according to what the bible tells us, it’s not going to be good eternally.

    Eventually I’ve had to learn to reign myself in and strictly control myself or perhaps a better way to put it: I have learned to distance myself. I don’t want to be hurt anymore caring about people who absolutely don’t believe a thing I say, who think I’m an idiot and deluded myself. Few atheists have actually really liked me sincerely and even fewer have been real friends of mine. They eventually hate me and turn on me almost every single time.

  5. Just wanted to clarify that I have no affiliation with Sabio,
    yours truly,

    Now onto the Christian Warrioress. I’ve always found the modern American Evangelical movement extraordinarily interesting. Their theories of life/history/spirituality are picturesque. Particularly their sense of infallibility. Correct me if I’m wrong, but their theory is that some two thousand years ago ‘god’ was looking around the planet- He observed the Greeks and their advances in philosophy, logic and may have even been impressed by the Antikythera mechanism. Then he observed the Chinese and their sophisticated atlas of comets. The Romans were okay, but c’mon, what’s so great about aqueducts anyway? Moving on, god looked all around the world and decided the best candidate for his head of PR was going to be
    an uneducated Jew in the middle east. So he impregnates a virgin. (If this had happened in Alabama, and god were black, I assure you he’d be on death row.) The virgin gives birth to what is in psychiatric terms a narcissist, or at least has strong narcissistic ideation. Mass hysteria ensues and the early church is born. But god’s not done yet. None of this is actually his intention. He’s real intention is that 1500 years later a break away sect be formed, aka the protestants. Are we there yet? Not quite. Another 500 years go by, the new world is discovered, America starts becoming a country. Oh yes, and the Methodist movement is born. A-HA, now god’s plan is nearly complete. The whole 2000 year trajectory was basically a game. Grand Theft Auto, but only gods can play. God’s real intent in all of this was to make 20th century American Evangelicals his chosen people. The absolute owners of His Message©. Of course, it makes perfect sense. A Jew died in the middle east 2000 years ago so Americans can picket with offensive signs outside of soldiers’ funerals in 2013. So they can persecute gays and lesbians, and so they can question scientific advances whilst embracing primitive camel-herder mythology that was popular amongst people who couldn’t read or write a very long time ago.

  6. @ W,

    You don’t seem to realize that if an atheist knows that their Christian “friend” or “acquaintance” believes they are doomed to eternal torment, and that they can not avoid it unless they believe exactly as they do you, it is a tough relationship to keep up. You don’t seem to get that.

    You try to say, “I don’t judge”, “I don’t try and convert” and so much more, but it is clear what is behind all the outward niceness. That is why it is hard for you to keep atheist friends. They can feel this hideous view you have lingering behind superficial outward niceness.

    Atheists may disagree with your theology, but they don’t believe you are bound for torture, they do not have compelling urgency to have you rescued. They can look at all the wonderful things you do for your kids and your loved ones and at your job and full heartedly say “Bravo” without thinking “Bravo, but so sad that you will burn in hell. These earthly good things are relatively meaningless without Jesus.”
    Can’t you see that this sabotages real relationships. Your theology is destructive for relationships outside your chosen flock.

    The depression these tense relationships causes you is a wake up call. Retreating to a callous “but-the-Bible-says”, black-and-white thinking is a mistake. I understand it of course, but it is unhealthy though I get it has served to protect you for a while. It is part of a whole package you bought — whole packages are easier than thinking for yourself.

    But I think your emotions here tell you the problem that is real.

  7. The problem is real, all right, Sabio, but the problem is that you don’t believe what I believe is possible. One of us is wrong. If it’s you, you’re in for one hell of a shock, as are your commenters. Yes, I know that’s another theory called “Pascal’s Wager.” You aren’t the first atheist I’ve interacted, and argued with. You’re one in a long line of them.

    I’ve been mocked, abused, lied about, gossiped over, stabbed in the back, and basically treated like pure dirt, all because they couldn’t “live and let live,” and offer me the same respect I try to offer them. I’m sorry you don’t like what the bible says. I’m sorry that I believe it, but I do.

    I believe that bible. I believe the people that wrote it. What is within it is occurring and has already occurred. It is prophetic and will continue to be. I base a belief in God on personal experiences with God and events that have happened in my life that I don’t believe are just coincidence. You’re entitled to believe me or not, but respect the fact that you could be wrong; so, for that matter, could I.

    Unfortunately, you have *a lot* more to lose than I do, Sabio. You’re gambling that with all of your mental brilliance, unlimited degrees, etc., that you know the truth. Well, the fact of the matter is God says that man’s wisdom isn’t worth diddly. So honestly, what if you’re actually wrong, Sabio? What if you find out that the whole time the bible was truth?

  8. Oh, I’m not conservative politically, Sabio. I’ve told you this before. I’m Independent, leaning left; yet I do still have aspects of conservative Christianity within my belief system because of the fundamentals of Christianity, which I subscribe to. Without those fundamentals, (the building blocks of Christianity), the whole point of the bible ceases to exist. That is my problem with Spong and the other new progressives who threw the baby out with the bathwater.

  9. Seeing as that final quote in the OP was a reply she directed at me, I am tempted to change my handle to Naive Guy whenever I dialogue with her.

  10. @ warrioress
    If anything, I’ll never watch another horror movie the same way again, thanks to you.

  11. @warrioress
    I’m sorry you’ve been hurt by atheists in the past and that’s why you’re a Christian now. Maybe you just never met any True Atheists…

  12. @Sabio
    Very well-said. Absolutely nailed it.

  13. Mike,
    Glad you and Sabio are amused by the Jason example. I love the graphic, Sabio….

  14. You try to say, “I don’t judge”, “I don’t try and convert” and so much more, but it is clear what is behind all the outward niceness. That is why it is hard for you to keep atheist friends. They can feel this hideous view you have lingering behind superficial outward niceness.

    Gotta get off this computer and get busy with life stuff. To address one part of your comment directly though, I don’t engage in “superficial outward niceness.” Thanks for sort of saying I’m outwardly nice. I really am nice, and I’m rarely superficial.The “hideous view” you say is lingering behind the niceness is subjective. Most people that know me in real time are aware that my spiritual beliefs have made me a lot “nicer” than I was before I believed. I’m also a lot mentally healthier, a better parent, friend, citizen of the world, etc.

    I guess you’re just going to have to deal with the “hideous view,” as I have to deal with you choice of belief that considers mine “hideous.”

  15. @warrioress
    To play off of your Jason analogy, you are saying there’s a rustling sound coming from the woods and asking us to believe, based on your personal experience, that it’s a guy with a machete. We’re simply saying, “Show us Jason.” Sure, it’s possible that there is a psycho killer coming for us, but it’s also possible that it’s a guy with a million dollar prize check. What if you’re wrong and you run away screaming? What if you find out that the whole time you could have been a millionaire?

  16. @warrioress
    There’s nothing subjective about seeing the eternal torture of billions for holding a wrong belief as hideous. It *is* hideous and there’s no getting around that.

    Look, as I’ve said before, I once believed as you do and saw nothing wrong with it, but after leaving Christianity I realized that believing others were going to hell never really allowed me to genuinely connect with them because I was always more worried about their eternal soul than I was just being a good friend. A belief like that does something to you. I could be nice as pie, but that hideous belief was always under the surface and affected every interaction and my entire view of the world around me. I think that may be what Sabio means when he talks about being superficially nice. People can sense it, whether you realize it or not. It’s really hard to be friends with someone you feel needs to change their views, or else.

  17. Pascal’s Wager seems to me to be another example of black/white thinking. Can the wager be made placing bets on more than the Bible/Reality duality? How about some of the several Buddhist forms (chant to Amita or eliminate all desire), Allah (if Islam could be right, wouldn’t you want to wear a burka and not send your daughters to school?), Scientology (those pesky engrams!), or Crom (Hail the Prophet R.E. Howard!)? Thor, Zeus, Venus, Mercury, Visnu, Shiva, and Joseph Smith… Heck, any of them “could” be “right” and you wouldn’t want to miss the opportunity to be blessed with eternal life by failing to believe in one of them. Of course, you’d better hope the right god isn’t really omniscient or they may perceive that you’re making Pascal’s Wager out of superstitious fear of eternal damnation.

    In trying to figure out what the basic mental traps that I’ve fallen into before are, one of the main ones is “If I believe it enough, it will be true.” We are quite capable of banishing disbelief from our minds *for any belief we choose.* This, unfortunately, does not mean that the BS (Belief System) is true. One can be “tricked” into determination to believe something by the claim that “you have to believe it with all your heart first to discover how true it is.” This is the path to accepting paranormal and pseudoscientific beliefs deep into one’s psyche in an uncontrolled experiment with brainwashing. The path out is steep, but it’s worth it for the view and sense of freedom.

  18. @Mike,

    If there is no Satan, no God, no salvation, I don’t take back or regret my choice because my life has been happy, positive, meaningful, and peaceful. I can still connect with you, Mike, Sabio, or any other person — regardless of their beliefs. What I think about eternal destiny is different than what you think. As was said, it’s different for countless people because of cultural issues etc. that they subscribe to. While I may believe they are in error, I would not dare to attempt to take that from them. They are entitled to a personal choice and their own thoughts on what they choose to believe.

    I may attempt to share what I believe from the bible and other people can reject it or move forward in exploring it for themselves; that is what I recommend they do. I don’t believe anyone who calls out to God with a sincere, seeking heart will not find Him. Once one finds Him, one may still walk away as you and Sabio have done. (Think the prodigal son). In the end, the son comes back and God’s arms are wide open. Not all will return, unfortunately, howeve I have to accept that whether it’s upsetting, or whether I like it or not, and I do.

  19. @Abel,

    It’s a gamble. It just is. I suggest you make your best choice and wish you the best of luck in doing so. For me, common sense tells me that the bible is truth. Numerous events within it were foretold and occurred. The bible is prophetic.

    I’ve seen God move in my life exactly as the apostles wrote about. I know I’ve made the right choice and I’m at peace with that choice. We must all go through a decision process and take responsibility for our choice in the end.

  20. @ David, Thanx for the challenge to become a little closer to your satanic excellence. I doubt you are following this thread, but not only did I change my graphic, I changed my whole Triangulations header. I needed a change — the Brahmanic font had done its time.

  21. @ W and the rest,
    Sorry, busy day and so much to catch up on. I think “W” makes some very important points — and critical counter arguments to you atheists which you have not addressed. I think those arguments are successful. But you will have to wait for another post to hear my explanation. Pascal’s wager will have to wait — Abel explained the counters superbly, but that is not the key to Warrioresses argument — I think.
    Warrioress, you have done a nobel job her. I hope I accurately represent in the coming blog what I feel is your best (and convincing) argument.

    @ MichaelB,
    Thanx so much for the great back and forth with W. My guess is that you guys would be best buddies in real person. Too bad we can’t all join over tea!

    Now I must go tutor my fine daughter in algebra (I know it will not help her escape hell, but it is what we have to do tonight and I am only an atheist parent — what more can I do). 😉

  22. Hmm. My child is in limbo too at the current time; she just got a 64 on her progress report in algebra, not to mention some other lovely rebelliousness that she got up to today. Teenagers. It’s my hope for your sanity that atheist teenagers are better behaved than Christian teenagers are. Best wishes with that, Sabio. I have to go and make dinner.

  23. Mike,

    You said “show us Jason.”

    Watch the news, any channel, local and world and you’ll see Satan in action within the violence of this world, the lack of empathy, lack of conscience, brutality, and within the increasing blood lust that seems to be out there. This is demonstrated through the music our children are being bombarded with, horrific video games, pornography, and everything that is going on in this world that is negative and disgusting. This is not the same world that it used to be in any way, shape, or form. It has truly degraded down to something I hardly recognize anymore.

    The mass school shootings and murders, as well as the increase in domestic violence, child murder, sex offenses that horrify, parents murdering their own kids and kids murdering their parents — I could go on and on. Satan is the god of this world, and he is reigning supreme on earth at the moment. Things are only going to get worse.

    It’s only a matter of time until the antichrist makes his appearance and we’re forced into taking the mark of the beast or receiving death. You’ll know we’re there when they are murdering bible-believing Christians in America and rationalizing that it’s necessary because we are terrorists or some other such nonsense.

    Another way you should be able to tell that Satan is among us is the fact that there are new gospels being written every single day by alleged “Christians” which are written purely to deceive and confuse mankind. These are counterfeit. They aren’t truth. There is only one being who would do anything to prevent humanity’s salvation and he’s successfully neutralizing salvation for thousands every single day because they are blinded and fooled by his tricks.

    I don’t know how else to show you Satan, but frankly, I would rather show you God anyway. I’m trying to do that in my life day to day. I don’t do it perfectly, but I am trying very hard and making progress slowly over time.

  24. @w
    I ask you to show me Jason and instead you try to convince me there is an invisible man in the woods doing all the killings. Good luck convincing the local authorities.

    If you think things are worse now than they were fifty, or a hundred, or five hundred years ago, you should probably pick up a history book. Seriously. Then ditch your computer, quit taking medicines, visiting the doctor and getting vaccinations, walk everywhere instead of driving, and grow your own food.

    Lastly, give yourself a little more credit. You are the one doing the hard work to make your life better.

    I’m done with our dialogue for now. I guess I didn’t realize how deeply you believed some of this stuff and we are further away from any sort of common ground than I thought.

  25. @w
    Share away, but just be aware that so far you haven’t shared anything I didn’t used to believe and have since rejected. If there is Satan, God or salvation, I consider it God’s fault for not providing enough evidence to assuage my doubts and keep me in the fold. As I’ve said elsewhere, becoming an atheist was never my goal: it just sort of happened when I went on an uncompromising search for the truth, no matter the cost. In other words, you’re wrong that “anyone who calls out to God with a sincere, seeking heart” will find him. I didn’t “walk away”: I went on a search and discovered he was nowhere to be found except in eves of my imagination.

    You’re happy in your belief. I’m happy for you. I’m not sure the God you believe in is quite so lackadaisical about my “personal choice” but we’ve beaten that topic to death so I’ll leave it be.

  26. @Sabio
    Always the diplomat. 😉 I look forward to hearing what you see as her successful counter arguments.

  27. By the way, just got done watching the news and a woman who is on trial for microwaving her 28 day old baby to death is going to get her fourth trial. What history book do we have this kind of thing in, Mike? Wow..just wow. I didn’t realize that parents cooked their own children back in the good old days as par for the course.

  28. You’re joking, right? I mean about there being no time in history worse than now? No slaughter of infants? Anywhere? The only thing that has changed is our ability to find out about horrific acts like that quicker than we ever used to.

  29. @w
    Might I make a suggestion? Close your Bible for a few days or weeks. Quit listening to preachers, prophets and radio hosts who only serve to confirm what you already believe. Explore the possibility that you might be wrong about some of what you believe about your eschatology, soteriology or theology. If you’re right then there’s nothing to fear and you’ll only be stronger in your belief, but you’re not going to get an honest assessment of the truth by only studying materials that agree with you. That’s true of any endeavor. Fair warning, though: I became an atheist after five years of doing just that. Call me deceived if you will, but I’m the opposite of deceived: I’m willing to admit when I might be wrong about something. That’s a far cry from oblivious.

  30. @ Sabio —

    Good, good, … gooood!

    You have come to the dark side of the Force! Let the disbelief flow through you!

  31. @ David: Thank you, great master! (fun videos)

    @ MichaelB: I wasn’t being diplomatic — I was sincere. But of course, I have a point to make. 😉 May take awhile to post it — I got carried away with Jewels this morning.

    Concerning the end times — arghhhh! Every generation has claimed it is here now! Prophecy fatigue.

  32. W, you said:

    It’s my hope for your sanity that atheist teenagers are better behaved than Christian teenagers are.

    Well, as with most things, the difference between Christians and Atheists, be they children, teenagers or adults, is far less than most Christians imagine — both in this life and after death.

    And, as I keep harping, I am amazed that after seeing this commonality for years, a Christian’s exceptionalism persists.

    As MichaelB alludes, if a Christian only has Christian friends, floods their brains only with Christian radio, TV, music and activities, then I guess this insight may never be available for them. They will remain safely secure and uncompromising in their religious cocoon. And I can understand the beauty of such security — I use to have it. Now I find a larger cocoon: I feel very similar and ordinary — right along with everyone else.

    If you have time, see my short post on:
    The Glory of Insignificance

  33. Maybe diplomatic was the wrong word. I meant being able to see both sides fairly. Can’t think of that word at the moment. Unbiased?

  34. chialphagirl

    If all thoughts come from either God or Satan and we do not generate our own then how our we capable of choosing anything? Would that not totally negate free will and moral accountability?

  35. @chilaphagirl,
    To whom was your question addressed?

  36. *facepalm

    Duality serves no one, especially when it’s external. The metaphor of God and Satan is better as an internal one, but vaguely. Plus it depends on what we mean by satan… if by “Challenger” which is what the name in hebrew implies, Ha-Satan, the challenger in a court of law or the prosecutor, and thus God would be the defense, that’d be cool. And that shoe would fit you and it would come from Job, the wisdom literature, which would also fit you as well Sabio.

    However, this is much too scholarly for the conventional tastes and it’s prolly just the “satan bad, God good” stuff. I’m sure the person who microwaved a baby was obviously an atheist… wait.. what?!

    I’m so sorry you have to put up with this.

  37. @ Luke:

    LOL: I am so ignorant. I had to look up “*facepalm” — ’twas a fun wiki read. I am guessing it means: “I am frustrated!” Or maybe “disappointed” or “disgusted” or maybe all of these, so the vague gesture was more useful.

    And I imagine you have the *facepalm feeling about this duality view of many Christians — as illustrated by “the Warrioress” here.

    Luke, I think the notion of Satan started out real simple and dual. Only later theologians tried to preserve the language and use for their reform agendas (for better or worse) by giving it a more sophisticated spin. But as you say:

    this is much too scholarly for the conventional tastes and it’s prolly just the “satan bad, God good” stuff.

    And thus, I argue — “Jettison the damn language!”

  38. Ha! You got it!

    This is our big difference among many. I believe there are times for both, but for me I see that there’s a story out there and one can use it to judge others. You could throw it out, but the story still exists. Instead, I find a better move to use the story to subvert the traditional meaning. I always go with the subvert. It’s not enough to rage against what you don’t like, one must replace it with a better narrative.

    I’m reading a very interesting book that uses Dante as a spiritual guide. Very compelling stuff and it’s knocking the dust of a crusty story that people just use to say, “See, look how awful hell is.” Instead, this author says (my short synopsis), “Hell is separation from others and a sense of purpose, purgatory is the period of reconnection, and heaven is that sense of total reconnection.” It is a compelling book and it subverts the conventional telling of the Dante’s poem and replaces it, with what I think is a truer understanding of what Dante was up to.

    So in this sense, “this duality view of many Christians” is hell for you… hell for them.. hell for me. It’s not a helpful stance, it doesn’t lead to yuan or The Kingdom or whatever the purpose is. Prolly neither does focusing on how you and I differ on whether to keep the story or throw it out. However, looking for connection is, in a sense, looking for heaven. Looking for the God, gods, or best-self/intentions/whatever is a harder yet better path. Not pollyanna sort of rose colored lens, but a journey through where we disconnect, where we try to connect, and where we connect. I think you and I have been on this path often and I’m happy for it even though it’s hard. I would like to think we’re both better for it.

  39. Then when subverting the tradition, while giving new meaning to old hackneyed, abused phrases perhaps one should stretch the tradition by employing outside traditions also. Have a devote Hindu each your congregation Hindu “puja” and see how far that goes: passing plate of food with candles as a communion act. Have congregants sit on the floor. See if they are comfortable with metaphors or just the familiar. Push them to feel deeper. But this is risky of course. And you are already pushing the limits. Just a thought.

    Have them share prasad and pass their hands over agni and then touch their foreheads.

    Any good Hindu temples in your area?

  40. Yes! Absolutely. We have a good relationship with the Hindu temple in the area. I really like what you suggest! We’ll check in and get this scheduled. Great suggestion!

  41. BTW: Nice redesign! Like’n the logo dude.

  42. Whenever I hear the word Satan I can’t shake the memory of this horse of the same name I used to ride as a kid…….he was a large black mean and far too intelligent stallion. Anyway.

    If someone believes in Satan, I think sharing one’s beliefs about hell should be reserved as an internal expression. In other words, never tell someone they are at risk for ending up in Hell. If you’re religious, you know it’s the job of God, not mortals to get that message across.

    Even if it were true – as a metaphor – even if someone’s dying of cancer, you don’t stand there and remind them of it. It’s thoughtless and not really our place. Of course I’m saying this as though I’m standing in the place of a very religious believer.

    On a different metaphorical level, it’s possible to tell someone of Hell as an internal struggle without seemingly condemning them.

    Having said that, Sabio – I think this post was totally legit, using part of a comment to spark a post. On the other hand, Warrioress seems to have disproportionately been the subject of your posts. Outspoken women (on every topic) tend to get the brunt of criticism and attention. Which is a pattern I like to question.

  43. chialphagirl

    @sabio I guess it was directed at the warrior lady who held the view in the first place, or at you sense maybe you knew how she would respond to what seemed like a fairly logical inconsistency.

  44. @amelie,
    I am an equal-disher-outer-of-criticism blogger — no need to play feminist cop here. I ain’t tender with no one.


    Let’s see, I think Warrioress may reply:
    “I don’t believe all thoughts come from God or Satan. We have free will as a gift from God so we can choose to love him or not. Satan tries to tempt us away from God and sometimes it is thoughts we hear. God will offer his support if we trust him by speaking to us through his Holy Spirit.”
    That is the best I can do right now.
    But you gave me a thought — perhaps I should play Yahweh’s Advocate more often on this blog — Satan seems to have plenty of advocates!

  45. I meant to add one thing, Sabio. Note that W is towing a difficult line; a devout Christian promoting progressive values. Pro gay marriage, social justice, animal welfare, the Church taking a good look in the mirror. Add to that her Atheist friends and bloggers; you’ve got about as challenging a circle of friends as it gets.

    I say this not to focus on one blogger but rather to say it’s a position I’ve taken speaking out against captive breeding, geoengineering and even against planting trees. It’s a good way to make enemies.

    Listening to some of the devout arguments sounds to me like decisions based on fear, not love. There is love within the devotion but not 100% of it.

  46. Posted that last one before your response, Sabio. Sorry about that.

    No feminist cop played here. You don’t have to use feminism to see that women are more heavily and quickly criticized in the same atmosphere than are men. Contrarian women even more so. Just be careful – focusing so much on one blogger can simply be not so great form.

  47. ps I know this because I went overboard with my criticism of Freakonomics and I realized at some point it became a “Thou doth protest too much” situation.

  48. @amelie,
    Yes, now that W is fighting the Christian Right, she has more enemies in her old circles, but she could have far wider friends in other circles. Think of the enemies she’d make if she gave up her exclusivism — no loss there either. Her circles would widen broadly.

    Question: If W were not a woman, would you be fighting as many imaginary enemies here?

    I am not focusing on one blogger — I have been all over Pastor Luke, John Barron and James McGrath — far more men then women. Be careful of your crusading bias! Coming here and preaching all the injustices out there and by implication warning me, without evidence, I am doing the same is irritating — see, I’m not gentle with anyone. I am not a blogger like you, nor do I intend to become like you. Our temperaments are different.

  49. If W were not a woman, would you be fighting as many imaginary enemies here?

    Hmmm, I’m not sure I understand the question. When I said enemies, what I meant was that W (and I) often alienate our friends because we don’t give the stock answer that foresters / Christians / animal lovers are “supposed” to give.

    If W was not a woman, and you posted about (him) 5 or 6 times, I’d say you were a tad obsessed. Maybe not with that person in general, but that the back and forth had gotten out of hand.

    What I’m mostly seeing, Sabio, is not that you in particular are obsessed. Rather, I see Atheists become obsessed with women who don’t agree with them. As we know, there is some serious sexism within Atheist circles.

    We all know about Elevatorgate and Rebecca Watson’s experience with Dawkins. Hopefully I can convey this message to you via the internet – you are far, far away from being a sexist male. However it’s easy for Atheist men to fall into this trap of going after women when they speak out. Especially if it’s an “easy” target – a Christian woman.

    (Note that the italics are brought to you by Sabio, who gave his readers a lesson on html).

  50. Well, you didn’t jump in there when I posted on Luke much more than 5 or 6 times. And you know, I don’t care if you consider that obsessed. Hell, you have come here before saying that you think posting on Atheism in general is obsessed. I’m tired of your me-centric psycho-analysis.

    So if you don’t see me being a sexist atheist, stop lecturing here about it. Write posts on your own blog about it. Stop with the generic criticisms that have nothing to do with what I write. Do you see what you are doing? Read your comment again. You did it again here.

  51. LOL well I didn’t see your back and forth with Luke. Again – I don’t think it is symptomatic of YOU having a problem. The problem for me comes when the target of those posts does not seem to have an agreement that you guys are cool with back and forth attention.

    With you and Luke, I can see you guys enjoy that kind of debate. W, this is a judgment call – but her surprise at being targeted struck me as her maybe not appreciating this much outside Atheist commenting.

    Look at the number of comments aimed at her compared to how many Christians spoke out for what they believed in (she is the only one).

  52. Well, I’ve tired of this. I will let you have the last word.

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